Culture Is the Control System: How Construction CFOs Win With People, Not Just Numbers

Rishi Srivastava (00:41)
Today our guest is Mark Deverges. Mark, welcome.

Mark DeVerges (00:44)
Hey, great to be here. Thank you for this.

Rishi Srivastava (00:47)
Could you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Mark DeVerges (00:49)
Sure. I have started in the executive search space, basically helping connect individuals and companies 20 some years ago, originally as a construction specific third party executive search firm and was very blessed to be mentored by some real experts in the industry. And through my career there, about a decade in, I’d connected in with this public accounting firm that also

ran an executive search arm from that same model of trying to help further their companies and candidates and clients goals. And in doing so, was able to connect in with them, talked for a little while and all of a sudden was asked to help run and lead their construction specific, real estate specific executive search arm and operation. And that’s what I’ve done ever since over the past 10 years. Based in Asheville, cover our firm’s footprint and I’m really blessed.

I met my wife when I was 19. We have three awesome sons, very outdoorsy, and usually find us in the woods or on the water somewhere.

Rishi Srivastava (01:49)
The first section is on your leadership and people strategy. When a contractor’s backlog starts to shorten, what are the first three people-side leading indicators you look for? And how should a CFO react in the first 30 days?

Mark DeVerges (02:04)
Sure, for every company, it’s all about the people. so indicators that I see, again, from the lens that I look at, before it even hits the balance sheet, are when companies are struggling with employee engagement or struggling with turnover. And it can be a downward spiral. And so for companies to really keep their people at the forefront is very key.

the companies that I find that are the most successful and that really understand their purpose of what they are doing and able to communicate that well to their employees to really try to make sure that every employee is really engaged with the business at hand. Not every employee in the company wants to or can be leaders, but everyone within a company can be achievers and to be a high performing achiever for whichever role that is.

been able to really granularly point out what that role does and how it furthers that individual’s purpose as well as that company’s mission. And so really leaning in on employee engagement, really leaning in on the communication. And that’s where I feel sometimes CFOs, as great as they are from a strategy perspective, fail when they start looking at things from a numbers basis versus a people’s basis.

Rishi Srivastava (03:23)
Yeah, every person has their mission and if it can just line up with company’s mission, the life’s going to be so much better for the company and the person.

Mark DeVerges (03:31)
Yeah.

And that’s when companies achieve that next level is that secret sauce of culture and leaning into whichever culture that is, because that’s going to naturally attract folks that want to be in that proverbial boat of that company, grabbing a paddle and contributing rowing versus expecting to be a passenger just along for a ride. And companies that are achieving big things

need all hands on deck and individuals that can, you know, get them through whether or not the seas are rocky or smooth and are better prepared for really whatever comes ahead and be that growth or challenges. That culture is the glue that keeps folks in their seats as well as drive that boat forward with some strong momentum. Not to be too philosophical.

Rishi Srivastava (04:19)
Great answer. You’ve helped place and coach C-suite leaders across GC and specialty subs. What distinguishes a great construction CFO from a merely good one in 2026?

Mark DeVerges (04:32)
What we’re seeing is that the role of the CFO is becoming one that just keeps getting added into it, if you will, beyond that forward looking, forward vision of the company, that ability to communicate as part of that senior executive leadership team, where the company is headed, where they are currently, and being able to communicate that in an effective way. Those are the pillars of a very traditional

CFO role, but taking that step further of being on top of the future trends and opportunities within technology, the integration of various different systems, because as a company grows and expands, there are these certain thresholds that as a company becomes ever larger or more complex, more and more has a basis within the financial realm. So today’s successful CFO needs to be adaptable.

Me needs to be flexible and change and able to help communicate those aspects in an ever changing industry that is rapidly being infused with technology and other opportunities. And someone who can help communicate and be that weather is one thing that I love. It’s, you know, being able to surround yourself by individuals that speak truth to what the current state is.

is important, but that someone who’s able to effectively communicate the optimism of where a company wants to go and the steps entailed to get there as part of that senior leadership team.

Rishi Srivastava (06:02)
Both the rear view mirrors and the windshield are important.

Mark DeVerges (06:06)
Yeah.

Yep. Yep.

Rishi Srivastava (06:09)
Many firms still treat HR and accounting as overhead. What’s your playbook for reframing those functions as profit centers and what KPI shifts prove the point?

Mark DeVerges (06:14)
Mm.

Sure, absolutely. And I think that there has been a pivotal shift kind of going back to what the current and 2026 looking forward CFO looks like. That is that embrace of technology, the embrace of systems, being able to have that accounting team that effectively recognizes what’s in the rear view mirror, but again, being able to effectively communicate and forecast where the company is going. And so all of a sudden,

that position and it’s natural within a company’s growth cycle that stereotypically, you by the time that a general contractor is crossing the 100 million a year mark or a specialty subcontractors crossing that 40 to 50 million a year mark, the weight and importance of all the metrics that have a strong alignment within the financial world really show the strong CFOs

know, being worth gold as, you know, between the bonding, the insurance, the various different opportunities for employee engagement and performance and, you know, paying compensation as well as margin. That strategic partner, if they are brought into a seat at that table, will be able to further that company’s goals in a way that you can take a snapshot of the

ENR – top 400. And I would say that pretty much every company in that list or aspires to get into that list understands the importance of finance and has made investments to really make sure that they have aligned forward thinking CFOs and accounting team members. that the C-suite, especially as it relates to accounting as a profit center is actually a presentation that I’ve been part of.

as it is such a pivotal role these days. And similarly with HR, and I think that HR gets a bad rep sometimes of being the department of no, or being the anti-business department, and nothing could be further from the truth for well-aligned, communicated HR teams that are looking at the organization as that kind of inverted pyramid that their ability to enable and further…

the operations in the field, make sure that folks are staying between the guard rails when it comes in safety, walking in lockstep with all of these aspects. They’re very intertwined gears of the same motor in a well run machine. That HR is absolutely mission critical. Their job becomes a lot easier the better the culture and the communication of that engagement is. That’s where

you know, sometimes, you know, it can be very challenging to course correct when things aren’t going well. And so to invest in your teams early, especially if you’re an entrepreneurial business owner or have made it to that C-suite, use this podcast as a call to action to more heavily look at how to invest in your employees, the team as

the goals, especially if you are looking at it from a financial lens, that’s how a lot of the growth-minded organizations got there, especially the newer ones that have broken in, have really leaned in heavily. And that’s the business case.

Rishi Srivastava (09:33)
Any KPIs that come to your mind?

Mark DeVerges (09:35)
Yeah, so there’s all sorts of KPIs that can help really kind of drive home how that company has grown. The ones, again, from the lens that I look at, can really be around the people model and to help from the concept of what gets measured gets improved generally. And for companies, executives that are willing to look at

you know, aspects that they really want and tailor-made KPIs. For example, you know, a company that wants to help drive sales, you know, looking at, you know, the action items that they can control, you know, whether or not, for example, that their business development team or pre-con team, you know, were successful on winning that bid, whether or not it was, you know, hard bid or negotiated, but especially if it was a negotiated bid that this one group has a KPI

You know, with, you know, very tailored for each specific leadership position within the company and including a lot of their, their pre-con and business development folks. And that sheet, for example, as a KPI, you know, heavily, aligned with some conditional formatting. So it basically looks like a stoplight on these various different aspects. And so beyond revenue, beyond, you know, kind of profit on a project, they’re tracking some of those other intangibles.

you know, whether or not they won or lost that bid, have they grabbed a breakfast or lunch with that selection committee, you know, members to really understand, hey, why did they get that job? What stood out? And so that they can lean in on that for future jobs or what led them to be the second choice and why did they lose that project? not all the times is it from a, just a pure hard bid as your bottom number.

Obviously that’s part of it, especially for our big projects. But, you know, as far as how to communicate that, same with safety, same with, other aspects. And that can be driven by, you know, HR, that can be driven by the C-suite and it becomes very granular and it reinforces, how to help make sure that those achievers win. Turnover is also one that’s tracked. Net promoter score is another KPI that I’m a big fan of.

that’s the simplest and you can do it all across the org chart of just a real simple and whether or not it’s once a quarter or once a month, but would you recommend our company to a friend? And there’s all sorts of ways you can wordsmith that, but that’s bottom line, do you recommend working here? Is the bottom line and to track that, it’s a real simple binary yes or no.

And if your employees are more often than not saying, heck yeah, we love working here to the point that we would enjoy recommending someone else ⁓ that we know and trust to join on as well, then that’s a good indicator. So tracking your net promoter score is key, tracking turnover, tracking internal referrals. You know, some groups track, you know, especially if they end up dealing with a lot of, staffing,

firms, what their annual spend is and what that increases or decreases versus their own capabilities to hire directly being that magnet of a company that attracts individuals versus having to hunt them down. Those are all different aspects that can be used by a company, but holistically, that net promoter score would be the easiest one for everyone on this podcast to implement.

Rishi Srivastava (13:01)
Walk us through a recent right person, right seat, right time, win. What was broken, what changed and how did margin, cash or schedule performance improve after the hire?

Mark DeVerges (13:15)
As far as someone who’s not afraid to really know what they’re walking into, and that’s where I think that relationship with a new hire starts on that first contact. Again, some companies are afraid of sharing exactly what that scenario is or where they’re looking to go. They just say, I’m looking for…

you know, whether or not it’s a project manager, site superintendent, or general manager, senior estimator, VP of accounting, whatever that scenario is, you lean into, you know, what makes the company special. Again, that kind of cultural piece that’s unique, and especially in this day and age of information overload, being able to highlight what that is, is going to, again, attract more of the right individuals.

and repel more of the wrong people. So trying to be able to communicate it on the front end as far as it can be the right person, it can be the right seat, but it might be the wrong bus, or it might be at the wrong station for where that person wants to go to continue that analogy. And so, you know, for an example, recently I’m working with a specialty group in New Jersey that has, dealt with a very challenging

admittedly, founder of the company that helped build it up to a certain threshold. But then they started being faced with a lot of turnover, a lot of challenges. And they realized that part of that was that the culture of the organization was that they hadn’t invested in their accounting team. And, know, to really elevate for the company’s growth, they basically seen, you know, 150 % year on year growth. I mean, just like

really significant growth of the past decade especially. And so, but they had yet to really allow that team to grow or to really invest again, to your original comment of sometimes accounting is seen as overhead versus a profit center. And in review of them with what some of their challenges were, a lot of it really ran deep with not having that…

champion, that accounting champion within their organization. And so it tried to help them find a controller, but it really mattered as far as being able to communicate where they were at and where they were looking to go. And at first, the company was actually kind of afraid of communicating that they had had such turnover. And I outlined that they really needed to be able to communicate that. So it wasn’t going to be a surprise to that person on day one. And so once they changed that, instead of getting turn downs,

you know, basically once that employee on their own that they were trying to hire, you know, caught on to what the real scenario was, they were losing some really talented individuals. So, you know, we helped in that communication, helped them find someone who had been part of turnarounds before and was able to engage and allowing that individual to really lean into that culture. And so again, that, you know, right person, right seat at the right time, what was broken was fundamentally more

culture, really being able to show that owner of the organization to get to where they wanted to go, they needed to level up their accounting team. And that meant really having a strong controller that also had really strong emotional intelligence, which again is one of those key spots that’s needed on senior leaders right now. And we were able to help them find that individual in that.

You know, it’s early days, you know, we’re within that 30 day mark, but it’s the most recent one that just comes to mind. And that’s where they’re, they planned out with that leadership team of, this is what my first 30 days is. And a lot of it was really leaning into getting to know the team and rebuilding trust. You know, obviously wanting to improve some of their month end close obviously wanting to further ⁓ immerse the company with some of the systems and software.

that they had invested in as a company, but they weren’t actually fully utilizing and having set realistic benchmarks that, hey, it’s going to be by day 60 to 90 before we really started being able to show results on that. So communicating reasonable objectives so that buy-in takes place. So clear, concise communication, realistic opportunities for growth, and really leading into …

what that specific scenario is and not just trying to sugarcoat things. I’ve seen more things spiral down if they’re just being sugarcoated. Hopefully that helps.

Rishi Srivastava (17:48)
Yeah, culture is so important. ⁓ The next section here is on compensation, succession and growth. How are top contractors aligning incentives for PMs, supers and finance leaders so everyone rows toward cash flow, risk and job cost accuracy, not just revenue?

Mark DeVerges (17:50)
Yes.

Sure, and that’s a great point. And that’s where I talk to owners of construction firms all the time, where they’re very proud about what they’ve grown their revenue to. But then if you peel back the onion a little bit, and their actual bottom line marginally has improved and possibly sometimes actually decreased. And so if anything, from a revenue standpoint or a profit standpoint, they were better off a couple of years ago.

because they just started throwing costs as an overhead versus strategic investments in team and growth. And so trying to walk that fine line, really is important for companies that want to motivate those team members, especially at the project manager, superintendent level, those field crew that may be removed from

the financial metrics to again really lean into that culture and communication of yes, you’re driving nails or you’re framing walls or you’re hanging drywall, but the why, as far as why are we different, why are we better, and why are we going to be able to further your goals and also the company’s goals and the successes in the wake of doing the right things, the companies that really embrace that mindset.

are able to make sure that those PMs and superintendents understand not only what they’re earning from a base and bonus potential standpoint, but that the companies aren’t afraid to make adjustments because they know where pay is in the marketplace. I’ve seen more companies get caught off guard or that spiral where, Jill or Johnny, they’ve been with us for forever.

they’re fine at that salary amount or that hourly rate. And then they’ll just kind of bonus them out. That might be fine. It’s really not a great practice, you know, because it just makes, you know, it just creates another aspect of friction that if things change and that bonus actually can’t be paid out on that same level or isn’t communicated as to how, now that all of sudden…

Rishi Srivastava (19:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mark DeVerges (20:11)
you’re more at risk for losing them as well as an also being unlikely to bring in new greener employees at what that pay band is, even if that long-term employee, their total comp has increased, but they’ve been arbitrarily kept below market for what the new historic ⁓ ranges are. being able to communicate that to avoid that risk.

communicate the KPIs again, very specific to each position. I love it when superintendents have a part of their base and bonus that also has an upside tied in with the safety culture, reinforces the mentoring culture. We have a challenge, especially with site personnel, that this large percentage is going to be retiring within the next four to five years.

Rishi Srivastava (21:00)
Yeah.

Mark DeVerges (21:01)
and to really align and motivate in a way to help bring up that next level of leaders, help show that day to day, how that can be achieved. so that communication walks and locks up with compensation and walks and locks up with succession, which a lot of companies and a lot of owners that may listen to this podcast, or in my experience, when I speak to owners about succession planning,

They think that we’re talking about their position. I look at it as basically going all the way down within the org chart, because that’s the secret sauce. When that project engineer can fully buy into how they can become, you know, that assistant project manager or project manager, or depending on whichever their career goals are, you know, for companies to really have the time, some think of it as a luxury. And I think of it as a necessity to really understand what those goals are for that individual.

and to build out that path and communicate this is our mutual goal. If you work hard to achieve these results, our goal is to be able to help make this happen. And that in five years, this is what that trajectory is. And these are the steps that we’re going to invest in you. So you get that experience. And so that’s not all just compensation, but that actually helps from a recruiting perspective. That individual is a lot less likely to take a call from

a recruiter calling them about that next day promotion, if they feel, actually, I’m going to get that here and they’re investing with me, so I’m going to be even more successful when I get there, that’s powerful. And then also understanding and being able to communicate the compensation from a holistic standpoint so that it’s not just the base and bonus, but that the whole package that a company may offer so that individual understands behind the scenes what that looks like.

as well as then how they can help grow that using today’s numbers. This is what we see for a future as we can continue to grow together. Similarly with the finance leaders, again, similar KPI model, different targets, but be able to communicate that. so understanding from a cashflow, job cost accuracy, especially if we’re talking about project accountants.

you know, again, internal net promoter scores so that they understand that, hey, you know, if I’m going to, you know, make sure that folks want to work with me again, how do I add value to that? My team, that’s my day to day goal and mission beyond just the simple reporting tasks.

Rishi Srivastava (23:32)
Yeah, very detailed and I like it. Succession planning often gets delayed until it’s urgent. What 12 to 24 month roadmap do you recommend for owner succession that protects culture, backlog, and bonding capacity?

Mark DeVerges (23:36)
Okay.

Yeah, no, and that’s so important, you you talk to you know any any bonding agent and you know They care deeply on not only the financial success of the company But also where some of those organizational risks are and also for some companies, especially if they are looking to Allow that owner to exit be it ⁓ ESOP be it a strategic acquisition You know

any of those scenarios or being able to sell directly to employees or that next generation of leaders within the company. There’s all sorts of structures there. And so again, it really helps for the owner to understand what they want, understand the pros and cons of each option. And I get pulled into some of those conversations and can also then see the unintended consequences on the back end of, hey,

You know, the company went into this with all best of intentions. Five years later, this is why my phone’s ringing from individuals that may actually want to know how they can exit themselves into other job opportunities is my role as an executive recruiter. And so I see, what works, what doesn’t time and pretty much any of these scenarios is your best friend. And especially if an owner is looking at wanting to exit.

company in 12 months, that limits their choices pretty quick. You know, and again, from that, choices as well as also from a valuation standpoint, because sometimes depending on what the intended exit is, really making sure that you have an operational team that’s able to step in and fill any of those voids. And so to have that kind of honest appraisal of, you know, again, can we promote Jill? Can we promote John?

How do we help get them into those spots that all of a sudden, if that succession of wave takes place, who’s able to fill that, being able to communicate that and to be able to use that time effectively to allow them to shadow, to allow them to train. You one thing that I’ve seen some companies do is to really allow, that operations leader or that CFO, hey, I have this series of

you know, aspects, events, meetings, conferences, or whatnot, you know, and delegating that person right below them, hey, you’re going to lead this for the next month. You know, I’m going to be here for that first week, I’ll be, you know, but you have the decisions for that. I get back that, you know, last week or two, and, but I’m not going to pick up the reins again until, you know, that

first of the following month and to really allow that person to spread their wings, allow that person to be there on speed dial if things go sideways. So creating that vacuum almost as a trial run when the stakes are pretty low, not only builds up that experience for that individual, but it also kind of forces that leader to communicate what their day to day looks like.

where their resources are, and strategically make some of those introductions. And that’s just for the health of the company, as none of us can change what we did yesterday, and none of us are promised tomorrow. And in that mindset, trying to make sure that today you do the best you can, and then also that you’re as prepared as possible for whatever life throws at you, and that can be some pretty stark scenarios that have impacted some very …

successful organizations that unfortunately got caught with some unexpected life events and they weren’t ready for, or they hadn’t perceived how they needed someone else to understand how to get payroll out, how to communicate or attend or connect in with the various different owners that the company leadership owner maintained that relationship, but all of a sudden that-

next group, they weren’t as connected and thus created a big risk. So using the time wisely, not to be morbid, but living under that mindset that tomorrow’s not guaranteed for any of us. And if you were to have to step out, who is going to be able to step in and do they know how to at least pick up some of those activities so it doesn’t cause a significant impact to the company?

projects or ability to keep the financial wheels rolling.

Rishi Srivastava (27:59)
Yeah, I like it’s very hard as an owner to imagine you not being there, in the future.

Mark DeVerges (28:06)
Yeah, it absolutely is. And that’s where, especially for most of them, have done some really amazing things, have, you know, overcome some incredible odds, especially within the construction industry, have bootstrapped it. Some of the most successful companies that we all look up to right now, their origin stories are very modest. And, you know, especially for those individuals.

have done so much with relatively little and built some very tremendous organizations that might be going through, you know, second or third generation of ownership even. They sometimes struggle with actually passing along, some of those fundamental relationships or key information that, you know, will cause some pretty big speed bumps if the ball bounces in unexpected ways.

Rishi Srivastava (28:51)
Definitely. In a cooling or uncertain market, what’s the most common talent mistake you see exec teams make and what alternative move yields the best ROI?

Mark DeVerges (29:05)
Yeah. So the biggest knee jerk that I’ve seen happen is when companies, you know, lay off, employees and just kind of create that culture that, their, employees are not, assets, but liabilities. Again, it’s really tricky, you know, any kind of headwinds, especially for construction industry group.

fraught with risk, fraught with financial exposure. And so trying to be able to help communicate that with their various different banking, bonding and insurance partners, as far as again, speaking to the reality of it. I think you’ll develop a lot of trust within those organizations. And so if you are seeing some headwinds, know, the companies that I see are more successful are the ones that sure use that time, you know, from, you know, 80, 20.

you know, perspective that, you know, our willingness see there 20 % of folks that are underperforming and, being able to communicate that, Hey, in the next three months, you know, we are going to need to make some tough decisions if, know, if and when I’ve survived multiple different recessions throughout my career lived through multiple different recessions. You’re making me feel very old right now. And, from that I’ve, I’ve seen

companies that react in all sorts of different ways. But I think that hiring intentionally, making sure that you’re hiring individuals that want to be achievers and are achievers in their role, that are, driving that culture of the organization, being able to do that before you need to allows you to better weather, scenarios where it cools down,

there’s opportunities out there in a lot of markets, even when things are interesting. And so if you have a unified employee base that are engaged and aligned with the mission and the culture of the company and know that the company is going to do everything they can to avoid layoffs, to treat employees as family, but also not afraid to have those honest conversations of this is where we’re at. This is what we’re facing.

And knowing that a lot of other companies are probably facing those similar challenges and the ones that are going to actually rebound into the growth cycle are the ones that have been able to keep that culture at the forefront versus spikes of hiring and spikes of firing, but really have that kind of even keel of keeping the folks that are aligned, promoting the folks that are aligned.

and promoting the culture of the organization allows those companies to have some of the best margins where that’s the success in the wake of doing the right things on regular basis. it’s in a cooling or an uncertain market, be cool, try to see through it. Obviously, it might not be the time for the additions to overhead, but they’re

Rishi Srivastava (31:42)
Thanks

Mark DeVerges (31:48)
There are opportunities in every scenario. And I’ve seen some other companies that come out the other side and following just good business practices ended up pulling a lot of really great individuals that otherwise may not have been attainable and actually come out the other side with some very strategic hires and well positioned for that next cycle.

Rishi Srivastava (32:10)
When the market is uncertain and the pressure is intense, it’s very hard to make a tough decision. You kind of tend to lose your own cool.

Mark DeVerges (32:20)
Yeah,

yeah. And that’s where it’s knowing your purpose. Again, not to get too philosophical, but the companies that I think where their executive leadership team really understand what their fundamental purpose is, and they’re not just chasing revenue, as weird as that may sound, the ones that understand their purpose and act accordingly tend to be happier, tend to be more whether

you know, aware of, you know, what’s going on, but are able to then also better adapt to the opportunities that are naturally going to come out of it and are able to help them communicate that. And so, know, don’t, you know, don’t all of a sudden look at life or business as a light switch of either, you know, you’re good or you’re bad.

of times there’s a little bit of a gray. And to be able to just understand, okay, this is how we’re going to make it more positive than where we’re at. Again, having those honest conversations with yourself, having that positive mental aspect, and to be able to communicate what that weather is in a way that doesn’t spread fear, but spreads the path is how true leaders are able to get from point A to point B.

with the team behind them. So it’s not just them going for a walk on their own.

Rishi Srivastava (33:37)
Yeah, you got to act despite your fears correctly. Culture as a control system. So this section is on culture and talent.

Mark DeVerges (33:40)
Yes.

Rishi Srivastava (33:45)
How have you seen strong culture measurably reduce safety incidents, rework, or DSO? Any before slash after examples you can share?

Mark DeVerges (33:56)
Yeah. so, yeah, if you’re asking about KPIs that are indicators when a company is going to have a rough next month or next quarter, that’s it. You know, the increase in safety instances, increases in rework, you know, being able to understand that. And sadly, unfortunately, they tend not to be surprises. And so when I’ve seen cult

cultures of company just double down on growth for growth sake, or we’re going to expand into this market and we’re just going to force our way into it. That sometimes that attention into areas that no longer align with the mission or purpose of a lot of the other team, especially if they haven’t really bought into what that is and the why, that’s where we see the unintended consequences.

of some big downfalls. Corners get cut, stress is being applied to the organization, and especially if it was more of the owner or company cutting some big checks to just grow, but they don’t lean in on that cultural aspect or understand that, hey, expanding in a new market for sake of conversation is tough.

Even if you hire someone who’s from that same market, it is tough to move the needle to introduce a new organization, to pierce that veil of existing relationships in a community. And so I’ve seen it where there has become such a financial focus on that, that it adds stress and dilutes the day-to-day culture of the organization. Don’t really feel comfortable sharing a lot of names, but unfortunately it does.

does happen on a pretty frequent basis when companies lose sight of what got them to where they’re at and they can’t then communicate where they want to go.

Rishi Srivastava (35:45)
What talent signals tell you a company is ready to expand into a new region versus needing to consolidate and standardize operations first?

Mark DeVerges (35:55)
Sure. So, companies that, again, understand their purpose and there’s some tremendous, contractors, you know, be it general contractors, civil or specialty subs, that their intent is to really just kind of own that local marketplace. And that’s part of their culture is that they don’t have travelers. They don’t have multiple offices and that’s fine. I think it’s tricky if a new

owner comes on board a company in that regard and then all of a sudden expects everyone to run from a new game plan. That’s tricky. The ones that I see that are most successful where that’s kind of embedded in the DNA and it’s well communicated as many years out as possible. You know, we’re going to expand into XYZ market. We’re actively doing so and we’re actively speaking to other organizations that,

we could either pair up with and they’ve either done some direct projects following in with clients and that they also then use the opportunity for some groups that when they communicated out that we want to open up an office in this location. We plan on providing XYZ resources. Please let us know if you or someone in your network that you trust.

would like to talk about that leadership position. Companies that are able to create that culture internally versus forced or kind of bolt on an operation that, again, the other company may not be aware of. Granted, situational opportunities arise and owners feel like they need to jump at it at times because it was too good to pass up. But those are the ones that tend to be then fraught with some risk and challenges from an integration, alignment, and cultural.

aspect. And so being mindful for those risks and not discounting it of, ⁓ it’ll be fine because some of those groups that have been acquired or bolted on or connected in with that, again, don’t understand that culture and the purpose. You know, those are some of those, you know, high performing individuals that are the first to leave because they’re going to have some great opportunities of individuals that know, Hey,

your world just kind of got rocked a little bit, why don’t you come talk to us?” And they’re much more eager to do so versus actually buying into what that opportunity may actually mean for them. So communication is key, culture is key, and that’s when a company can’t communicate the why and the how and their purpose. Those are the ones that struggle.

Rishi Srivastava (38:23)
Yeah. The last section here is on career and industry evolution. You’ve worked as a career counselor to industry leaders for decades. What’s one counterintuitive career move that repeatedly unlocks growth for high potential CFOs or COOs?

Mark DeVerges (38:42)
Sure. you know, what’s tricky is that as a career counselor, it’s, you know, I definitely don’t advocate for folks that, change jobs, you know, in chasing money. That’s the one thing a lot of folks want to jump in. they see what they can put in the bank as far as kind of points on a game and to be able to, hey, just jump to the next group, the next organization.

I’ve seen that have the biggest risk for individuals because then in that new organization, especially if that’s moved two or three down the line and each time they’re, well, this is what I’m paid. Now I’m only going to move for this or that’s, you know, what their compensation motivation is that usually the companies that are paying above market or, are willing to bring in, especially if someone’s made some very short stints.

there’s a lot of risk on both sides because that individual, especially in finance, may not have actually seen enough cycles so that they actually understand and own that level. And then also may, if they have been able and fortunate enough to move from psychic conversation assistant controller to controller to VP of finance and wow, now they’re actually offered that position as CFO, but they, they,

may not have actually had the training. You know, and so really kind of understanding that it’s great to have growth and unfortunately, more often than not, especially within good companies, sometimes you do hit a glass ceiling where you’re surrounded by A plus players. And if you do have that ambition, sometimes that path out is the path. If that is a main goal and purpose for an individual, you know, it’s just simply may not be.

available within those future career roles. But that’s a risk if someone is making changes to the point that they’ve never actually seen a full cycle and can really speak to it or own it or expect, hey, wow, the market’s so good. I’m getting thrown so many job offers. I’m going to take some of these. The music may change. It’s kind of like musical chairs. And then all of sudden, that person may be overcompensated for their actual levels

years of experience, and that becomes very humbling. In that same vein, I’ve also, from a counterintuitive scenario, seen it where someone has, again, followed the roles that pay the most, but that ultimately can sometimes put a target on their back from the fact that all of a sudden they may be being paid $20,000 over what true market is.

but they were engaging, were aligned from so many other aspects that the company chose to make that offer and to meet their salary requirements. But if they’re not able to raise to the challenge and the actual task at hand of what that is, that can really send the wrong message and almost that extra 20 grand costs them more in the long run versus looking for opportunities where you can be mentored.

can be grown. And again, keeping an eye out for those scenarios as the career ladder is rarely in one straight line, but that there can be some very strong reasons and rationales to make a move here and a move there as you work up building both the value that you’re actually giving to an organization and thus again from that same mentality that that financial growth for yourself.

is going to in the six and come in the wake of adding value and to really know and show up. And that really takes a lot of self-awareness. That takes a lot of emotional intelligence and that takes putting in the work and really loving what you do. And so, you know, don’t be afraid to put in the time is also what I would say. That’s a little counterintuitive to a lot of, you know, recruiters that

They constantly just trying to encourage people to jump ship. The grass is not always greener and unless there’s some strong intentionality in it, it can end up being a lose-lose for both that individual and the company they just joined in to.

Rishi Srivastava (42:46)
I like that you are saying that jumping too often can be bad, you know, as a recruiter, most of the time people are asking other people to jump. That’s how the recruiters make money, you know.

Mark DeVerges (42:51)
Thank

Yeah, a lot of times, but that’s really short-sighted. that’s where the better recruiters, I like to think of myself as more of a career counselor. I would love to be that trusted advisor. I’d much prefer to tell someone the truth about where they’re at in their career as it aligns to their goals. Life’s too short. I’d much prefer to become that trusted individual to further their company, further that individual.

versus just trying to encourage people to leave to chase a dollar or to chase a title that ultimately isn’t going to set them up for success. And many of my clients also look at it that same way. We’re going to invest so much into both this individual from a compensation standpoint, but also beneath the iceberg of all the additional training opportunities, company perspective of what they bring them.

to the table with that we want to make sure that that person shows some grit and will effectively rule out individuals, especially if it is a company that enjoys having long tenured individuals, but also enjoys people that are coming in with new ideas and best practices. They want to really understand the why behind it as it just sends up red flags to that future employer.

Historically, someone’s only been in a seat for six to 18 months. After a while, that reflects on the individual, not on their ambitions.

Rishi Srivastava (44:19)
Yeah, I like that. For finance leaders listening, what’s your first 90 days ramp plan when taking over a new construction finance org? Audits, team, comp, WIP rhythm, tech stack.

Mark DeVerges (44:34)
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that’s, that’s where it really, you know, takes into understanding what that, what that goals that in specific role in that specific company scenario is, you know, historically, especially if they’re jumping into a ⁓ tricky scenario, you know, to really earn that, that trust, you know, the trust and the engagement and to lean into that culture.

Rishi Srivastava (44:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mark DeVerges (44:57)
again, in that first 30 days, no one’s, a superhero that I’ve met. I’ve met some really, really neat people. No one has superpowers except for being able to engage with people. And there’s an analogy that I love of no one cares how much you know unless until they know how much you care. And so to be human, yeah, to be human, you know, to allow, individuals to understand, that

Rishi Srivastava (45:17)
I love that. Yeah.

Mark DeVerges (45:22)
individuals, what led them to the role, being able to communicate that, to allow them to be vulnerable of, these are the challenges as I see it. These are the challenges in my background of where I need to grow and also then reciprocal how I would like to invest with the individuals and again, taking as much time as possible with that team to build that engagement.

I’ve seen some amazing companies do amazing things and weather all sorts of storms. And it all goes into, again, having that trust, having that communication, building that team that everyone knows, we have your back. And that’s hard to do in 30 days, but the folks that really want to make a difference, finance leaders that build that trust, that are not going to just be saying yes,

you know, to the ops side, but that are able to really speak to what the numbers are showing them and not just clicking send on spreadsheets, expecting everyone to understand it to the same level. So that take the time to better communicate it, better address it. And that also importantly are willing to delegate, which again, most folks

listening to this and most folks that I’ve connected with in my career are doers. They like doing the work, but it’s also a tremendous opportunity for finance leaders to delegate specific tasks that shows trust when communicated effectively and that shows an opportunity for those individuals who may not have touched a specific aspect of that individual’s role before to learn with them. Hey, can you help?

put your head together with me on this to try to figure out how to better communicate or to reconcile or to really dig in on this. And that kind of shared purpose adds some additional engagement. And so that’s where that first 30 days is mission critical from a cultural standpoint, really understanding where things are. Cause it’s always different looking in from the outside versus the inside being able to then better communicate to the ops team that may ignorant league.

communicated that it was wildly different from what they were actually looking at. Leaning in on the systems and tools that align well within that very specific company are key. A lot of companies benefit from tools that can help automate and can allow their team to do more with less, as well as do more with being able to communicate where things are. So knowing the technologies, knowing the systems that are available.

and taking the time to actually dig in and to reach out to folks that are experts in that can really improve that trust and that relationship. Knowing your audit team, understanding the company’s compensation culture around what that looks like and to help communicate that, understanding and learning that wip rhythm. so making that kind of 30, 60, 90 day goal, break them out.

with some attainable results. Yeah. So that, and don’t be afraid to check in with those partners that, you know, that have that similar, uh, sitting at that similar table, but maybe approaching it from HR, uh, maybe approaching it from operations, maybe approaching it from safety and just being that partner again, communicating that we’re all in the same boat. We all want to roll hard. Let’s make sure we’re rolling in the right, the same direction.

and understand what the other person’s saying. you know, that checks a lot of those boxes. There’s no one, hey, let me just press send on this playbook. It’s perfect for everyone. But, you know, those are what I see being the most effective for individuals that are new to organization and have to get up to speed real

Rishi Srivastava (48:51)
Yeah, yeah.

I love it. The last question here, is actually a story time. Tell us about a placement or advisory engagement that didn’t go as planned. What did you learn about alignment, incentives, or culture that our audience can apply tomorrow?

Mark DeVerges (49:18)
Sure. Yeah, no, I’ve been doing this 20 some years. So, you know, unfortunately, there are a few different scenarios that keep me up at night that, you know, because I’m dealing with people on both sides of the equation. And more often than not, the individuals that I’m working with are currently employed. They’re just underutilized, under, you know, not satisfied or the life has taken them in a different direction. And they want to make a very strategic change.

And so it’s painful sometimes when a company may not really know their numbers and really understand, you know, I work with a lot of owners that are looking to get to that next chapter of growth or, that next generation that may not have actually understood what it takes to run a business. so, yeah, I’ve seen that scenario play out a couple of times that

Yeah, a company was actually in worse financial shape than they realized, or that they were so tied in with one client. The market changed for that one client company that it exists six months later. That’s painful. You know, especially if, five months prior things, you know, looked sunny or from a cultural standpoint, the company liked the idea of growth.

but they didn’t really understand how to communicate their culture. so in both of those times, know, that individual, unfortunately, six, nine months later was having to look, desperately look for a different scenario. And a lot of it went to either the financials of the company that mostly due to them being so heavily invested with one client, that that was a much bigger risk than they realized.

Or operationally the owner wanted to grow, love the idea of growing, and then the complexity or the investment to get to where they wanted to go, all of a sudden they weren’t willing to play the long game of, it’s going to take 12 to 18 months. They were all on board six months in, realized, hey, I kind of enjoyed my life beforehand. This is too much work.

you know, ultimately just changed the culture right back down to a very small company mindset, which was challenging. And so, yeah, we, we learned to be, you know, raise the bar on our intake process, really help communicate when we’re successful and be very intentional with the clients that we work with and really, take that career counselor hat seriously of, you know, I want to,

get that opportunity when more often than not it’s, you hey, we helped place that controller. They were promoted to CFO five years later. They were then promoted to president five years after that and are now calling us because they were able to either promote or they have a gap at that controller or CFO level. Those are the only times we want to fill that same position again.

Rishi Srivastava (51:46)
Thanks.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Mark. It was good having you on the show. ⁓ This perspective about people and hiring is so critical. The industry is about people.

Mark DeVerges (52:19)
Yeah, absolutely. That’s what it’s all about. I really appreciate the opportunity to connect. I really appreciate what you and this podcast are doing to help connect, communicate, and allow us to all pause to just think about what other aspects are contributing to our construction industry. I care deeply about it. And thanks for letting me help share my passion.

Rishi Srivastava (52:41)
of course talk soon

Mark DeVerges (52:43)
Sounds good. Thank you.