Rishi Srivastava (00:42)
Today, our guest is Ryan Heeth. Ryan, welcome.

Ryan Heeth (00:46)
Thanks, Rishi. Thanks for having me today.

Rishi Srivastava (00:48)
First section is on contracts, claims, and job site reality. Walk us through a project where the contract looked clean on paper, but everything fell apart the moment construction actually started. What was the gap between what was written and what played out on site?

Ryan Heeth (01:08)
You know, on a lot of projects where there's been challenges, know, the contracts always look good at the start. know, GMPs fine, prices fine, subs are fine, their prices are good, schedules fine. But I always say like whenever construction starts, that's whenever the problems start to happen. And really those gaps are seen through, just scope gaps in the drawings, bad coordination.

tons of conflicting RFIs between the owner's different consultants and things like that. there's kind of this way of thinking, I think, with contractors is that they're not responsible for the design. That's always on the owner. It doesn't matter what happens at the end. It's going to be the owner's responsibility to pay for all these things, including delays and extra costs and change orders and all that sort of stuff. And that's really kind of where the…

you know, the reality is a little bit different. And it's different because, those types of claims really, slow the project down. If there's tons of change orders, know, bad drawings, bad, you know, crazy RFIs going around, that's what really starts to, take up a lot of extra time and energy from your project team. But not only that,

you kind of learn that the contract is just kind of a risk allocation document as well. So if you start to have these types of claims on the project, you have to reserve your rights to those claims with proper notice, RFIs back to the owner, a paper trail on every single one of them, you know, good schedule updates throughout the course of a project if you have a delay claim, because you're going to be looking at that later on the impacts to critical path.

But just keep in mind that these claims are always extremely costly to prosecute. Not only, like I said, do they take up a lot of your project team time and effort, but it's also hard to get owners to pay for them at the end of the day. So, you know, that's always an issue as well. So, but like I said, a lot of times the contracts look great up front.

But once you start construction and really start trying to build the thing and you realize that there's a lot of gaps in the drawings, that's what I think really hurts projects.

Rishi Srivastava (03:09)
You put together a million dollar extra cost claims in New York City. Most people assume you just pull totals out of the accounting system. But you've said that's exactly how you get yourself in trouble and even liable for exaggerating a lien. Walk us through what it actually takes to do this right.

Ryan Heeth (03:28)
Yeah, so I think of liens and claims as two separate things. Liens are basically costs that you can legally include in a lien, right? Without the other side making some kind of claim that the lien is willfully exaggerated or includes a bunch of stuff that you legally can't include in a lien. And the consequences of those in court can be substantial depending on the state. In New York,

your lien can be struck down. You know, you lose those rights to the lien in your interest in the project with the lien. And you can even be responsible for the cost of the other side, for defending against such a lien. Whenever you're talking about claims, though, you're really talking about contract claims. And the contract governs those. And those are really included if it goes to litigation in a breach of contract claim. But otherwise, you know, you're going to be making

claims, directly to the owner and you can really include anything you want. So that's kind of why I think of them as two different things, you know, liens, you may be limited on the things that you can lean for and with claims, you can kind of include everything that the contract allows. so that's kind of the difference there.

Rishi Srivastava (04:44)
Very well said. On delay claims, you've described needing an independent scheduled consultant to build the critical path before accounting can even price the delay. Why is the order of operations there so important and where do most contractors get it wrong?

Ryan Heeth (05:00)
Yeah, so if you're talking about a delay claim, you're really talking about the net delay to the critical path or the substantial completion date. So what you're doing is you're really just trying to justify to the owner why you're entitled to either extra time in the contract or extra time and extra costs, right? And whenever you're looking at a critical path schedule and you're doing an actual analysis of it,

There's going to be delays from from you the owner subs. Everything's going to be in there right the good the bad the ugly But you know if you really do have a delay claim against the owner from the contractor side I always like bringing in a scheduling consultant up front Especially if it was going to be you know a claim large enough to justify a schedule consultant Which a lot of times it is because the cost up front for schedule consultants, usually isn't that much

Instead of just using our in-house scheduler. And really what that did was it really added weight to our claim to the owner. It added a third party who's willing to put their name and reputation on the delay claim. And it let the owner know that, we're ready to fight for this claim. We're ready to bring in somebody from the outside who's done an analysis. Here it is. Here's our case. Here's all the details, all the backup.

all the extra costs, all of our justifications, and one packet for you here, And what I've found is that that usually leads to quicker settlements, either interim change orders for extra time during the middle of the project or whenever you're doing this towards the end of the project. If you're able to get an agreement towards the end of the project before you do closeout,

you know, that's also preferable as well. Otherwise, the owners are just going to kick this, can down the road. So you've to let the owners know that you're serious about, delay claims and prosecuting them.

Rishi Srivastava (06:41)
seriousness does matter. A lot of times we are trying to some money without any serious work behind it.

The next section here, is where law meets finance and CFOs get surprised. You said external legal costs can't sit inside a construction lien. They have to be pursued separately as a breach of contract claim. How many CFOs and controllers do you think actually know that and what happens when they don't?

Ryan Heeth (07:13)
Yeah, again, this is going to be state specific on what can be included in a lien and what cannot be included in a lien. I would assume that any CFOs that have gone through a full litigation with a lien or breach of contract claim combined would probably know this. But like I said, it's very state specific. yeah, so.

Every time that I've had to file a lien from the contractor side, from the GC side of the construction management side, it's actually been pretty rare. I think sitting in the CM side, you're used to seeing these things from the subcontractors a lot more. So a CFO of a construction company probably may not see the preparation of their own lien as much as seeing just subcontractors hit the project.

But yeah, so I would also say that, some states, those extra cost claims, delay claims, unsigned change orders, all that sort of stuff, you know, can't be included in a lien as well. So just, you just have to be careful with your specific state's laws and work with a local attorney before filing a lien because you don't want to just print out all the accounting data from the project.

minus what's been paid and file that as your lien. I think that that's where contractors really kind of step in it whenever they're going to file.

Rishi Srivastava (08:30)
You need to dot your i's

Where does a construction problem stop being an operational problem and officially become a legal problem, even if the project team doesn't realize it yet?

Ryan Heeth (08:42)
I kind of frame this usually in you know into those like what does the contract say issues, because a lot of my time as you know in-house counsel and construction companies is really Just being presented with a problem and all I say is okay. Well, what does the contract say? We go and read the contract and that directs us But really those legal issues cross the line from operational problems to legal problems

The moment somebody's rights or allegations that time starts to run and those can be either be like written notice requirements If you receive a claim from a subcontractor, you might have a pass-through notice to the owner and there might be a clock for that You could have like change directives from owners that you need to reserve your rights to For those, you know extra costs and time

Like if you have like a delay in payment from the owner, you know, okay How long do I have to wait till I can stop work? And then then another good one that people forget is that whenever you hit substantial completion In a lot of states a statute of limitations starts to run on their claims as well You know time limits to file liens and claims and things like that. So those are just so just think of really anything that has

a time to do something, I would say that crosses over into the legal field.

Rishi Srivastava (09:59)
Hmm. I was talking to another lawyer before and he said when the trust breaks down between the parties, that's when it really becomes a legal problem.

Ryan Heeth (10:09)
I don't know, maybe. Yeah.

Rishi Srivastava (10:11)
I think trust

is there and it's still a legal problem.

Ryan Heeth (10:14)
Possibly. I don't know. I don't know. I did newer construction, so trust was never really discussed that much. So everybody was always CYA. But another thing, another one of my rules I kind of live by really was identifying issues.

Rishi Srivastava (10:15)
Mm. Okay.

Ryan Heeth (10:33)
you on a constant basis on the project. So I know that, a lot of you have, weekly or monthly meetings, get those issues, like wrangle them out of the project team, you know, make sure you're talking about them and you're identifying them. And because a lot of times in these contracts, you don't have a long time to provide those written notices of, of claims to the owner. So you don't want to, have them.

basically void at the outset because you missed a notice requirement. So just keeping on top of those notices and getting them out of your project team, your field team is good. Weekly, monthly meetings, whatever, just wring them out of your project team.

Rishi Srivastava (11:09)
You've hired and directed outside litigation counsel on major NYC claims. What do construction executives most often misunderstand about how litigation strategy actually works and what a great trial lawyer still can't do without a strong in-house partner?

Ryan Heeth (11:31)
Yeah, know, construction cases, whenever they go to litigation, are extremely difficult to prosecute. And that's because they're extremely fact and technical, technically intensive. Not only that, there's a ton of parties, there's a ton of subcontractors, material suppliers, consultants, designers, there's just tons of people involved in a construction project. And that knowledge…

is really sitting kind of in your in-house team. And that's hard to get across to an outside attorney who's going to prosecute a case. And really, the outside attorneys, their job isn't really to manufacture a case so much, but to manage the process of litigation and to make the case that you're bringing to them for you in court.

You have to, as an in-house representative of company, get the information, the relevant information, to the outside counsel. And you're kind of responsible for framing the case for them, just because there's a lot of in-house knowledge about all these projects, and they're very complicated. yeah.

Rishi Srivastava (12:41)
I kinda feel for the trial lawyer or the judge who's evaluating these cases. It's so complicated.

Ryan Heeth (12:48)
Yeah, yeah, and that's another thing is, judges in the courts, they don't understand this stuff, it's always hard. And, one outside attorney always told me that, know, whenever you're bringing a case as a contractor to court, you got to keep in mind like judges and juries and all that sort of stuff. Like they have that, set in their mind that like,

Contractors aren't trustworthy people, they're always kind of hiding the ball, like, you're kind of going to court, on a back foot, with, just some, I guess, bad contractor reputation that you're not responsible for, but, that's the way it goes.

Rishi Srivastava (13:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, I was watching this show, Jury Duty and one of the lady in the jurors she was always sleeping.

Ryan Heeth (13:31)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, good luck trying to explain, a delay claim to a jury like that. It's good luck

Rishi Srivastava (13:38)
The next section is hidden profit centers in cost plus GMP. You gave a great example on our prep call, paying a PM $100 per hour, but billing them at $150 per hour through agreed labor rates in the qual section. Unpack that for our audience. How does a contractor quietly turn general conditions into a profit center?

Ryan Heeth (14:06)
Yeah, you know, and we're talking about, framing this in the context of a cost plus with GMP, type of project, right? So I loved, the business people that really use the quals. And when I say quals, it's, the call exhibit to the GMP, which includes clarifications, occlusions, all that sort of stuff. We always just kind of packed them into one exhibit.

you can get really creative in there, right? the AIA will say one thing, but you can change all those deal terms in a qual sheet because everything in these contracts is a negotiation, right? And what we would do is we just put in the very top of the exhibit, the price in GMP is based on and subject to the following qualifications, clarifications and exclusions, right? And what we would do is,

start to use like agreed upon rates for certain things. And I use labor rates as an example because, it was just kind of an easy one. And it's also a huge general conditions line item in most projects, right, or the biggest. And so, if you agreed to that, all right, we're going to build this PM out of at $150 an hour, but you're really fully burdened at $100 an hour, you're going to make that spread. So you kind of have a little bit of hidden profit.

In the labor you're charging to the project under GC's now, obviously you're still limited by the you know, the total GMP But remember those labor hours and labor rates and everything they tie into the schedule the GMP schedule and the staffing chart which drives that GMP and if you And if you do that, you just kind of pick up extra margin here and there, you know

Rishi Srivastava (15:38)
Yeah, this lawyer stuff so hard.

Ryan Heeth (15:42)
Yeah, I was trying to think what else you can also do. I mean, you can do it with other things like insurance and maybe, I don't know, maybe like some equipment rental things, things like that. You can really kind of look through there, what you have in your GCs and what you can agree to just say, okay, we're going to charge, this rate for this thing and see if you can make a spread in there somehow. So, but yeah.

Rishi Srivastava (16:00)
Beyond labor rates, what are the other levers in cost plus GMP that move contractor margin? Incidence markup, shared savings losses, contingency, fee base.

Ryan Heeth (16:12)
Yeah, yeah. And again, we would use the qual exhibits for a lot of these things as well. But, know, if you can find a way and a lot of companies do to charge a margin on insurance, that's always a great profit center. And, we can talk about a little bit more, but programs like SubGuard and CCIP, you know, you're

your commercial liability and bonds and stuff like that you can always charge a margin for it again you can just charge a know a rate for it which I'm sure a lot of people listen to this call already do. Another thing was contractor contingency well obviously the biggest thing on the legal side is who controls it like the contractor always wants to control it you don't want the owner.

with his finger on the button and a big gatekeeper of the contingency. But to use it as a profit center, obviously, is just to use a shared savings clause. And you can have a contingency in the shared savings, and you can just have anything that comes under the GMP as shared savings as well. So that's kind of another way to pick up some extra money in a GMP. Sometimes I've had owners…

try to lock in a fee, is it like a fixed fee and not a percentage fee? So, if anybody out there that has owners just trying to set like a total lump sum fee for the project that's not tied to a percentage of the cost, obviously you want to tie to a percentage of the cost so the fee goes up as the project costs go up. This one was a little bit hard to get but change order markups,

I always tried to get it. I always tried to get a little bit of extra percentage points in the GCs on change order markups. Let's say let's say GCs on your GMP, you know, schedule values comes out to, I don't know, 10 or 13%. But in your change order markups, you can set whatever you want. can say, okay, well, I want 15 % GCs on my change order markups. So you can have a little bit of wiggle room there to, you know, kind of blunt the,

the impact of having to manage change orders by just getting a little bit more extra percentage points on your GC's markup and your change orders. Also, a lesson learned on change order markups. Make sure in the contract you include all the things that you need markups on the change orders for, especially think like insurance markups and agree to the rates. like a whole, all right, we're gonna agree to these.

three, four, five percentage markups on change orders to cover certain things. I've seen a lot of contracts that'll say, okay, fee N GC's will give you a markup of 15%. And it doesn't say anything about insurance. that was always a tough one to come back to the owner for and ask for more money. And then I always liked incentives for hitting milestone dates. I always thought that they were great. Sometimes we had those directly go to the project management staff.

And it paid their bonuses and it was great for retention. And the project management staff really loved them. They were out there working hard, showing up early, getting the projects done, and they were getting rewarded for it. But you can also split that up, give some of that milestone bonus to the project team and then maybe keep some for the company as well. But I always love milestone bonuses, especially if we were super certain we were gonna hit them.

top out, different milestones within the project. You can be really creative with them as well, with all these things.

Rishi Srivastava (19:23)
people love them.

Ryan Heeth (19:24)
Yeah.

Rishi Srivastava (19:25)
You've negotiated against owners pushing for things like a million dollar cumulative threshold before change order markups apply. From the contractor's seat, how do you defend that markup? From the owner's seat, how do you actually agree with the contractor's argument?

Ryan Heeth (19:49)
Yeah, so I think you're dealing with a couple issues there. know, one is defending, you know, for the markups, right? You need your change order markups, need additional general conditions and fee and insurance and all that sort of stuff that are going to, directly relate to managing those change orders and change order process. And the other one I saw a lot in New York was that owners wanted a threshold of change or cumulative change orders before they would allow markups to start to be charged to them.

And, I kind of get it from the owner side. Like his argument is always, oh, you're already on site. You already have it staffed. all projects have change orders. You know, it's just part of, the general conditions that you're charging me for this project, But on the contractor side, I would always say, well, how many change orders are you going to have on this project? Is it going to be five? Is it going to be 500? Like, I don't know. how would I, agree to a threshold when I don't even know?

how many or what kind of change orders or what it's gonna take to manage them. I can't see into the future, I can't see into the changes that are gonna come in the drawings. So it always was a good back and forth.

Rishi Srivastava (20:49)
Yeah. The next section is the switch to the owner's seat. You are now running real estate development in the Cayman Islands with a $100 million project on deck. What's something you watched like a hawk as an owner that you didn't fully appreciate when you were on the contractor side?

Ryan Heeth (21:10)
yeah, I mean, from this side, I'm mostly concerned about, the project finances, right? and the thing that I really have watched the most, is the schedule of values. And I really don't want them being front loaded, by the contractor. And for all the reasons you can think of, I have to pay, interest on those amounts. The work isn't being performed, but the money's already out the door. So I'm at.

I'm at risk if the contractor or the sub walks and they've already been paid for it. And then I'm concerned about the contractor having enough money to finish the project at the end of the day. You know, we're on a small island. It's not like I can just pick up the phone and call somebody else to come out there and pick it right back up. You know, we could do some serious damage if I don't have enough money at the end of the day to finish the project and the contractor walks in the middle of it. you know, those, that's just watching the schedule values.

and trying to prevent a bunch of front loading to it is really what I'm watching right now.

Rishi Srivastava (22:03)
Yeah, as your seat changes, your concerns change too.

Ryan Heeth (22:08)
Mm-hmm.

Rishi Srivastava (22:09)
You said your current contractor wants to do a lump sum design world, closed book project, and it quote unquote drives you nuts. Why is that structure so dangerous for an owner on a big build? And what do you give up versus a cost plus GMP?

Ryan Heeth (22:31)
Yeah, I don't know if I would call it quite dangerous because I'm also passing off a lot of the risk to the contractor, right? I'm passing off pretty much all the design risks to the contractor, which is the owner's biggest risk on something like a cost plus of the GMP. So I'm actually getting a lot of risk off of my plate. But what I'm really losing is all of that transparency like I would have in a cost plus with a GMP type of contract.

because it's with a lump sum, it's closed book. I don't see through, I don't see the trades. It's hard to figure out who's being paid, who's being paid what. I don't get to see all that information. And I also don't get to be involved in the bid outs, right? With the cost plus the GP, the owners are involved in basically the buyout of the project with the contractors. And I have limited rights to audit the contractor's costs, right? And even if I do,

It doesn't really matter anyways, because he's going to make the spread on all the trades. So just for me, on any project, I love just the transparency. I like knowing who the subs are on site, where the materials are being bought from, and with a lump sum, you might not get all that. But like I said, with the design build, I do offload that design risk onto the contractor, but I also lose

design control a lot, right? You know, because I'm telling the contractor to build, in this case, a commercial project, but he can go and pick almost whatever materials he wants. And, you know, what it looks like on the drawings now and what he picks for materials at the end of the day, you know, might not quite look exactly like I would want it. But in reality, we're building a white box commercial space.

So this type of contract's a little bit more fitting because, you know, as long as the exterior looks nice, the inside's a white box, you know, the tenants will do their own fit outs and, I don't really care less what the inside looks like. know, tile wall finishes, painting, you know, none of that's, you know, none of that's for me. So, for this project, it fits a little bit nicer, but, most every project, I wouldn't go with a, I wouldn't go with a design build or a lump sum, really.

Rishi Srivastava (24:38)
So what are the factors that sway you one way or another?

Ryan Heeth (24:44)
between the different contract types.

Rishi Srivastava (24:47)
Yeah.

Ryan Heeth (24:47)
Mmm You know at the very outset, know I would say it's really like design control really right because like if I'm gonna do another we're doing another project that's residential I Gotta have design control over all the interior finishes and you know all that sort of stuff because I have a product to sell you know to a residential buyer at the end of the day and I got to make sure it's it's beautiful and correct and it's something that

someone's going to want to buy and live in. Like this commercial project, like I said, it's a white box, right? You know, the people who are going to be leasing the spaces or owning the spaces are going to fit them out themselves. So, so that's probably, you know, the design control is really the differentiating factor and whether I want that or not.

Rishi Srivastava (25:27)
Building on an island isn't building in New York. What's surprised you most about how a Cayman project actually gets stood up? Design, subs, materials, permitting, timelines.

Ryan Heeth (25:43)
Yeah, well, New York is an island. it has a, you in New York, you you just have so much accessibility to subcontractors, materials, everything is, within a 20 mile radius, right? Being in Cayman, you're on an island, a real island in the middle of the ocean, and everything comes by boat. So what that means is logistics is super important. And that's going to affect

costs, schedule risk, all sorts of things. For example, with the Iran conflict and the increase in oil prices, now all my shipping costs are a lot more and everything is coming by boat. So that has become an issue. I will say, Cayman's not quite like some of the other Caribbean islands. It's like a pretty

well-oiled machine when it comes to construction. There's a lot of real estate projects going on there. There's a lot that's happened in past. And that means that the subcontractor base and the supplier base there has really been built out over the years by some big developers there. And so, that's been really kind of a refreshing thing because when I first showed up, you know, I had the same question. Who's doing the work on the island of, you know, 80,000 people?

and how are you getting all this stuff the island, but it's actually not that big of a deal down there. Just because the subs are so well built out down there. I will say that, building in Cayman is like building in a small town. You know, it's an island of like 80,000 people. Everybody knows each other. All subs, all contractors are, super tight, probably related to each other. You know, it's like a real small town. So you don't want to be stepping on any toes down there.

because your reputation will get around the island real quick.

Rishi Srivastava (27:28)
I also live in a small town and I can totally relate to what you're saying. It's a town, everybody knows everybody.

Ryan Heeth (27:34)
Mm-hmm.

Rishi Srivastava (27:36)
The last section here is Financing, Incidence and Career Lessons. You are financing a $20 million K-1 project through private credit, investment funds, PE-Money, wealthy individuals, because the islands don't have US-style construction banking. Walk our audience through how that actually works versus a traditional bank deal in the States.

Ryan Heeth (28:04)
Yeah, I'm not really the complete finance person in our group, but I will say that doing something out of private credit allows you a lot more flexibility. Institutional banks are just basically box checkers, and as long as you meet their metrics, everything's good to go. So they're very process-oriented, but private credit's not quite the same. So you can be a lot more flexibility with the terms of your loan.

You can fit which can fit your project better. So you're not just trying to fit the project in the bank's box, know, the private credit guys are trying to fit their loan into your project and what your project needs So that's really the the biggest help there But if you have a loan that's you know syndicated through private credit, you know, just kind of remember on the other side You know, you could have you know one money person or you could have ten

And they all have their opinions on your project, on the loan agreements, on what you should and shouldn't be doing as an owner, or what the contractor should and shouldn't be doing in their construction contracts. So you could have a lot more parties with their hand in the financing discussion whenever we go the private credit route.

Rishi Srivastava (29:07)
It's most of the time it's bankers who are deciding these projects.

Ryan Heeth (29:10)
Mm-hmm.

Rishi Srivastava (29:11)
CCIPs and OCIPs sound boring on the surface, but you've seen them quietly become major profit centers on the right project. Where is the bar? What project size? What kind of contractor or owner? Before this is even worth considering.

Ryan Heeth (29:32)
Yeah, it's a it's a great question and I can really only speak to it from the contractor side We don't run in we don't run an OCIP, you know down the Caymans But from the contractor side if you you don't if you're out there and you don't run a CCIP program it could be a great profit center and there's really not like a One size project that fits in them because you literally fit all of your projects into the CCIP Then it'll be covered in the CCIP. The CCIP really matters about

total volume of what you're running through the program and you know kind of a lesson there is that you know when you're working with the carrier you need to kind of make sure that you're agreeing to run a certain amount of volume through the CCIP that you know you can get through the CCIP or there could be some penalties on the other side if you don't run enough volume through there through the term of the CCIP program. So it's really just kind of an aggregate

project size that run through these CCIPs. But I would say that if you don't run a CCIP program, really understand how to sell it to the owners and the benefits of them. And the biggest benefits of them is that you're really wrapping up all the subs into one insurance policy. So you don't have 20 subs on a project with all different.

journal liabilities and excess coverages from all these different carriers with all these different expiration dates and renewal dates that you have to track and all that stuff, you know, kind of takes a lot of that away. And whenever you run a CCIP program, you know, if you run it through like a good broker, you know, they'll administer it as well and all the compliance, for the carriers. So, and then, whenever you run a CCIP program,

And the way that you make a profit on it is really you're just kind of sharing the profit with the carrier. You're agreeing to share some of the profit of the policy with the carrier.

Rishi Srivastava (31:14)
The last question here, Ryan, is looking back across purchasing agent, in-house console for an NYC construction manager, and now developer side in the Caribbean. What's the one lesson you'd give a CFO or controller listening today that they won't pick up anywhere else? And if you want to make the pitch for your incidence broker, this is the spot. That intro is earned.

Ryan Heeth (31:40)
you

Yeah, thanks. I appreciate that. You know, I'll kind of give you a funny one that's come up in the past for me a lot. Whenever your project teams are out there agreeing to and signing change orders, be careful that the owner is not slapping a cover sheet on top of that change order.

like with the signature pages and everything for it, that includes some extra language like signing this change order. This is one that I've had a lot. Signing this change order, you you waive all your rights to any delay claims or extra cost claims related to the work in this change order. And your project teams could be out there thinking like, okay, we got a change order sign, all good, throw in the accounting system, increase the GMP value, you know, we're off to the races. But what they could have done,

is waived a lot of rights to future claims, especially delay claims related to that change order. And those could be claims really that you don't even know exist at that time that you're signing them. you know, just this is like a lawyer speaking, just have your teams be super careful what they're signing out there. Because it could have a serious impact on the project and the project finances at the end of the day.

Rishi Srivastava (32:53)
Yeah, when you're excited, we got the change that was signed. Don't waive all your rights.

Ryan, I had a great conversation with you. Thank you for your time today.

Ryan Heeth (33:03)
Thank you, thank you Rishi, thanks for having me.